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timerippleNon-scientists and non-philosophers be warned.
I was brushing my teeth just now, as most civilized people do before bed, when a thought occurred to me that had not done so before. In Dionys Burger's Sphereland (a continuation of Edwin Abbott's Flatland), mention is made of a two-dimensional life form being "lifted" into the third dimension, flipped over, and returned to the second dimension, now in a mirror-image form of its previous self. What, then, would happen if a three-dimensional life form were so transformed by passage and reversal through a higher spatial dimension? I'm hesitant to say "through the fourth dimension" because that's supposed to be Time, and I don't know much about how Time relates to Space, or if it could relate in this way to a spatial object. (Alas, my aspirations to become a temporal expert were cut short by my dismal failure to satisfactorily comprehend Classical Mechanics.)
Unfortunately my next questions sort of need that information as part of any speculative answer. I began to wonder, not whether such a thing would be feasible, but what effect this transformation would have on the body of, say, a human being or other Earth life form. Earth life is carbon-based (as far as I know) and contains a certain amino acid in its "left-handed" form (the "right-handed" form is deadly). My first thought was that the subject would probably die, or at least return in an unrecognizable shape, since the amino acids would now be right-handed. However, upon closer inspection it occurred to me that the entire three-dimensional shape would be reconfigured, not just the "handedness" of the molecule. Again, at this point it would be really, really handy to know what sort of changes such a transformation would effect.
Then I got to thinking about the rest of the body at the molecular level. The DNA would code (if the atoms themselves still interacted in the same way) for entirely different proteins than they did before. Even supposing the new proteins were functional and could interact with one another within the body, how might they react with outside substances that did not undergo a dimensional transformation? In fact, would the atoms interact in the same way as they did before? (I know, I already asked that. Sort of.)
What if the higher dimension were in fact Time? I, along with most of the general population, know very little about Time beyond its daily importance in everyday life. I have an amusing image of the transformed life form living its life backwards, like T.H. White's Merlin. Then the developmental biologist in me kicks in, and says "What in heck would that do to the pathways and concentrations that kick in at specific times during development?" I really ought to read the remaining books on my Physics/QM/Astronomy shelf, in hopes that I may learn something of the concept of individual time, and whether it is relevant to my next questions. Can a temporally flipped person interact with a non-temporally flipped environment at any level (ie anywhere from atomic to social)? If the dimensional flip didn't kill you, how would this work?
I want answers! Fiona's Proposed Reading is as follows:
The Elegant Universe, Brian Greene
Time Travel in Einstein's Universe, Richard Gott
The Fourth Dimension, Rudy Rucker
Fiona's Past Reading includes but is not necessarily totally limited to:
A Brief History of Time, Stephen Hawking
Black Holes and Baby Universes, Stephen Hawking
Stephen Hawking: Quest for a Theory of Everything, Kitty Ferguson
Flatland, Edwin A. Abbott
Sphereland, Dionys Burger
In Search of Schrodinger's Cat, John Gribbin
The Physics of Star Trek, Lawrence M. Krauss
Any other books you physicist people would care to recommend? Better yet, please comment about this stuff! I already know I'm completely off my rocker, but don't let that stop you. Please restrain yourself in matters of equations, however, because while I may be a reasonably intelligent person with a penchant for odd dimensional questions, I fared rather abysmally in classical mechanics and have had no math since multivariable calculus (and that was over a year ago. I've done nothing more interesting than long division since).
P.S. I saw an new illustrated copy of A Brief History of Time in Barnes & Noble the other day. I am covetous. *sigh*
I was brushing my teeth just now, as most civilized people do before bed, when a thought occurred to me that had not done so before. In Dionys Burger's Sphereland (a continuation of Edwin Abbott's Flatland), mention is made of a two-dimensional life form being "lifted" into the third dimension, flipped over, and returned to the second dimension, now in a mirror-image form of its previous self. What, then, would happen if a three-dimensional life form were so transformed by passage and reversal through a higher spatial dimension? I'm hesitant to say "through the fourth dimension" because that's supposed to be Time, and I don't know much about how Time relates to Space, or if it could relate in this way to a spatial object. (Alas, my aspirations to become a temporal expert were cut short by my dismal failure to satisfactorily comprehend Classical Mechanics.)
Unfortunately my next questions sort of need that information as part of any speculative answer. I began to wonder, not whether such a thing would be feasible, but what effect this transformation would have on the body of, say, a human being or other Earth life form. Earth life is carbon-based (as far as I know) and contains a certain amino acid in its "left-handed" form (the "right-handed" form is deadly). My first thought was that the subject would probably die, or at least return in an unrecognizable shape, since the amino acids would now be right-handed. However, upon closer inspection it occurred to me that the entire three-dimensional shape would be reconfigured, not just the "handedness" of the molecule. Again, at this point it would be really, really handy to know what sort of changes such a transformation would effect.
Then I got to thinking about the rest of the body at the molecular level. The DNA would code (if the atoms themselves still interacted in the same way) for entirely different proteins than they did before. Even supposing the new proteins were functional and could interact with one another within the body, how might they react with outside substances that did not undergo a dimensional transformation? In fact, would the atoms interact in the same way as they did before? (I know, I already asked that. Sort of.)
What if the higher dimension were in fact Time? I, along with most of the general population, know very little about Time beyond its daily importance in everyday life. I have an amusing image of the transformed life form living its life backwards, like T.H. White's Merlin. Then the developmental biologist in me kicks in, and says "What in heck would that do to the pathways and concentrations that kick in at specific times during development?" I really ought to read the remaining books on my Physics/QM/Astronomy shelf, in hopes that I may learn something of the concept of individual time, and whether it is relevant to my next questions. Can a temporally flipped person interact with a non-temporally flipped environment at any level (ie anywhere from atomic to social)? If the dimensional flip didn't kill you, how would this work?
I want answers! Fiona's Proposed Reading is as follows:
The Elegant Universe, Brian Greene
Time Travel in Einstein's Universe, Richard Gott
The Fourth Dimension, Rudy Rucker
Fiona's Past Reading includes but is not necessarily totally limited to:
A Brief History of Time, Stephen Hawking
Black Holes and Baby Universes, Stephen Hawking
Stephen Hawking: Quest for a Theory of Everything, Kitty Ferguson
Flatland, Edwin A. Abbott
Sphereland, Dionys Burger
In Search of Schrodinger's Cat, John Gribbin
The Physics of Star Trek, Lawrence M. Krauss
Any other books you physicist people would care to recommend? Better yet, please comment about this stuff! I already know I'm completely off my rocker, but don't let that stop you. Please restrain yourself in matters of equations, however, because while I may be a reasonably intelligent person with a penchant for odd dimensional questions, I fared rather abysmally in classical mechanics and have had no math since multivariable calculus (and that was over a year ago. I've done nothing more interesting than long division since).
P.S. I saw an new illustrated copy of A Brief History of Time in Barnes & Noble the other day. I am covetous. *sigh*
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no subject
Date: 2004-07-27 07:45 pm (UTC)O.O
no subject
Date: 2004-07-28 06:21 am (UTC)Yes, I know I'm crazy, what's your point?
no subject
Date: 2004-07-28 06:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-28 09:49 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-28 10:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-27 08:45 pm (UTC)I read an Asimov speculative (but not sf) essay once about what would happen to a being like us with predominantly left-handed chemistry if plonked down in an environment where all around him was right-handed. If I remember correctly (and it's been years and years, I'm afraid), he agreed with what seems intuitively correct--that said being would be happy and healthy and internally consistent and breathing just fine... until it tried to eat. And then it would wonder why it was starving to death while eating turkey dinners. Basically, if we were mirror-imaged, and the handedness of everything in our bodies that has handedness was switched, it would all still work with itself, and the only outside molecules that we encounter that are complex enough to be handed are those we metabolize...
Ok, so I don't think that actually told you anything new, but... maybe I could find the essay again. It was in one of the oodles of little paperback collections of science essays that he's published.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-28 06:19 am (UTC)That Asimov essay sounds really, really interesting! If you find it, do let me know. I'm planning some bookstore snooping, so maybe I can check for it based on content.
*starts to lament lack of physics gene, only to remember that she doesn't believe in genetic determinism enough to allow for a physics gene* Bah. Y'know this sociobiology stuff? I bet it was started by people who were bad at math.
huh
Date: 2004-08-02 09:58 am (UTC)but i don't think that it should be taken for granted that flipping something in a dimension higher than ours and returning it to the third dimension would end up switching things around in the same way that flipping something here and returning it to flatland would. that is, i'm not entirely sure that right and left would be switched. or that that's the only thing that would happen. my first thought was that everything would be turned inside out.
my next thought is that time is, in a way, a spatial dimension (disclaimer: my complete knowledge of dimensional theory comes from flatland and conversations with friends who have actually read all the latest theories, which is why they are at harvard and oberlin and i am not. most of my ideas about higher dimensions comes from my near-completely ignorant musings). think about it this way: to turn a 1d line into a 2d square, you move the line to the side and connect the outermost points. to turn a 2d square into a 3d cube, you move the square to the side and connect the corners. ==> to turn a 3d cube into a 4d ???, you move the cube to the "side" in the 4th dimension, then connect the corners. however, viewed from the 3d, the cube hasn't moved at all. think about a cube sitting in the 2d. you see a square. as you move to a lower 2d plane, you still see the square, in the exact same place. it's only when you get to a plane below the square that the square is nowhere to be seen.
now think of that in terms of 3d + time (as the 4d), where each second represents a different level of 3d plane. i am sitting staring at a cube. at s1, it is here. at s2, it is still here, in the same place, but i'm at a different place in the 4d (time) => it's moved to the side, so to speak. (where was i going with this? ...oh, right:)
so, thinking of myself as a 4d object which at one end, in the 4d, is a little fetus, and at the other end is a dead, decomposing corpse, to flip me over would be to reverse time. so i'd start as a dead corpse, come to life and get younger till i diminished into an egg and a sperm while everyone around me was doing it the other way around. i'd be flipped.
thinking about it, that's not exactly the same question you were asking, because time might be spatial (if my logic is right, which is doubtful), but if that's the case then we live in the 4th dimension, and you were asking about dimensions higher than the ones we percieve. but it was fun to think about anyway :)
back to work :(
Re: huh
Date: 2004-08-02 04:12 pm (UTC)Isn't dimensional brain-twisting absolutely fabulous? The annoying thing about this whole business is that I'm not sure we can treat Time as the "fourth" dimension (if there's any reasoning as to why we can, I'd like to hear it) because we don't know anything about any spatial relationships it might have to the "first" three dimensions. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I have issues with the hierarchy of the known dimensions. And all those other funky dimensions curled up everywhere? I don't think THAT's going to work if one keeps up the progression-of-dimensions explanation that you and lots of other people (very nicely) outlined. Then again, I am but an ignorant classical civilization major, the despair of all known physics departments, determined to achieve ambidexterity by transcribing Tennyson.
*runs off to read popular science string theory book*