The Garret

I know nothing about...whatever DT thing you're talking about. But even if you're right and things are not as they seem, one thing is sure: Dumbledore is not coming back, at least not as he was; as I wrote in my post, he may be a ghost, although I doubt it. You don't write something so final, saying things like "Harry knew Dumbledore had left, left the school, left the world, left Harry" without really meaning it, and there were similar definite statements amounting to 'THIS IS THE END.' So whatever Snape may be up to, if anyone still has the energy to wonder about his allegiance anymore, the bottom line is he killed Dumbledore. It doesn't matter why, even if Harry and everyone are wrong about the reason. He did it, and I don't believe it's reversible in any way. The rest matters not to me, at least not yet.

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Oh, I agree. Dumbledore's dead, and according to Nick's summary in OOTP, he won't be coming back as a ghost. I am still on the fence about Snape - I have a feeling Harry doesn't have all the information on him yet, and of course at this point we don't know any more than Harry does. All I can say is, the speculation wars are going to be fun!

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Snape had to kill Dumbledore. Draco wouldn't, and much worse would have happened if Snape hadn't kept the Unbreakable Vow. If Snape hadn't finished what Draco couldn't accomplish, then Snape would have died, Draco (and probably his whole family) would have been killed by Voldemort, and the other Death Eaters up in the tower would have killed Dumbledore, anyway.

Although I'm devastated by Dumbledore's death, I do think that Snape might still be working more against Voldemort than with him. Remember at the beginning when Snape told Bellatrix and Narcissa that Dumbledore hurt his hand because his reflexes were too slow ... yet Dumbledore could have sustained much worse injuries considering the danger of destroying the Horcrux and it's quite possible his reflexes (and Snape's convenient arrival) are all that saved him. Also keep in mind Dumbledore's comment that Voldemort only pretends to keep individuals close to him, as friends. Bella thought she was his most trusted servant, but Snape clearly played off the same theme (without allowing jealousy or pride to surface) when telling her that he knew of Voldemort's plan because he was a most trusted adviser. I do think that Snape was taking advantage of Bella's lack of knowledge about Voldemort's true M.O.

Also, I think Snape was lying at the beginning: I don't think Voldemort had told him anything about Draco's assignment to kill Dumbledore. He probably suspected, but I think (or maybe just hope) that he was bluffing. I still think we're going to find out why Dumbledore trusted Snape so completely, which will hopefully mean that we meet up with Snape plenty more before Book 7 ends.

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I still think we're going to find out why Dumbledore trusted Snape so completely

I sure hope so - I think Dumbledore had better reasons than we've been told so far. What was with his making comments about his own intelligence so often, though? I can only remember that happening once in the previous five books, when he reveals how he used the Mirror of Erised to hide the Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone.

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I think the first one was similar to that comment in Sorceror's Stone, sort of a joke. One of the other times was to take Harry down off his high horse and remind him that even though Harry is Dumbledore's partner in all this, he's still a 16-year-old kid. Maybe all of those comments in this book were designed that way; to keep a tiny bit of a lid on Harry.

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much worse would have happened if Snape hadn't kept the Unbreakable Vow. If Snape hadn't finished what Draco couldn't accomplish, then Snape would have died, Draco (and probably his whole family) would have been killed by Voldemort, and the other Death Eaters up in the tower would have killed Dumbledore, anyway.

I don't call that much worse, I call that one up on what actually happened or what I think will happen. Draco and his family are dead meat now, I'm positive. Voldemort was already pissed at Lucius, and now Draco has defied his orders. As far as I can see, there's no way out for all three of them. So their deaths have not really been avoided. Dumbledore dies either way, right? And as far as I'm concerned, I would rather have seen Snape ripped into tiny pieces than cause Dumbledore to go to his death pleading with him. Ugh. The bottom line is, Snape's choice was to murder Dumbledore in cold blood and live, or refuse and die. If their roles had been reversed, Dumbledore would have chosen the latter option.

And that is why I want nothing more than to see Snape eviscerated ASAP.

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Draco and his family are dead meat now

I wonder. Dumbledore's dead; Narcissa and Snape seemed to think that this was the most important bit, and not necessarily who killed him, otherwise they wouldn't've bothered with the Unbreakable Vow. I don't think Voldemort can afford to eliminate any of his allegedly-staunch supporters at this point. Remember in GOF, he tortured but didn't kill whatshisname (although he did in OOTP, I think). Bellatrix survived whatever the aftermath of the Department of Mysteries fiasco was. Voldemort seems to respond pretty well to sniveling and groveling, and we know Draco's good at that. Yay Draco character development, anyway (it's about time!).

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Better to die painlessly and instantly than to be shredded to pieces by a werewolf.

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You have a point there.

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I think Dumbledore would have preferred to die at the hand of any Death Eater other than Snape, the one to whom he offered trust, sanctuary and forgiveness. At least with the werewolf, it wouldn't have been anything personal. But Snape killed him with hatred and loathing, and not just for being Voldemort's enemy; it was his own hatred, and that has meaning, whereas being torn apart by an insane werewolf is just bad luck.

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I still say there's more going on than we know about. We don't know for certain exactly what Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to do, or at whom Snape's fear and loathing were directed.

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I think that's grasping at straws; maybe we'd better agree to disagree :)

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Oh, wait, no it isn't. Holy shit. I just thought of something. What if Dumbledore was begging Snape to kill him, and Snape felt hatred because Dumbledore was making him do it. Maybe Dumbledore sacrificed his life for Snape's continued cover as a Death Eater; maybe he wanted to keep Snape's chance at outfoxing Voldemort alive. Shit. Now I'm even more pissed off and heartbroken. But I still hate Snape for doing it :) And I don't know whether or not I believe it.

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Ooh, either that, or Dumbledore knew about the Unbreakable Vow, because Snape told him, and sacrificed his life for Snape's, as well as for Snape's Death Eater gig. Dammit! I'm starting to hate Dumbledore. This is bad. I will reserve judgment. And I'm going to hate reading Book 7, because I will only be reading to find out the answer to these questions, and the whole time I'll be missing Dumbledore.

Harry Potter isn't fun anymore. :(

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What if Dumbledore was begging Snape to kill him, and Snape felt hatred because Dumbledore was making him do it.

That's what I was considering as a possibility. I'm still devastated by Dumbledore's death, but I think there's definitely more than one interpretation of the events.

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God, I'm a moron; of course that's what happened. Dumbledore wouldn't beg for his life. I just hate that that's how Harry sees things; he needs to know that Dumbledore died still owning his position of strength, not giving up, and even more importantly for Harry's future, he needs to know whom he can trust and whom he needs to keep at arm's length, and except for Snape, I think he's got that bit pretty well squared away.

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Alas, Harry just hasn't got our tendency to look at things from as many angles as possible. That's been a big problem for him before, and probably isn't going to be any help to him - that's one big reason he needs his friends so much. Not that he always listens to them (OOTP), but still.

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Yeah, I know. It's just that no matter how close Harry got to Dumbledore, the issue of Snape was always lurking between them, especially in this book. Of course, Harry feeling confident enough to question Dumbledore's judgment to his face is a huge step forward in their relationship from revering him as some sort of omniscient guardian angel, but still, Harry's belief that Dumbledore has been suckered by Snape continually puts a damper on the trust between them, which really annoys me. Of course, Sirius was absolved postumously; possibly Dumbledore will be too in Harry's judgment.

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tekunokurato.livejournal.com

snape was DEFINITELY lying in the beginning... it was far too carefully written to be otherwise. However, don't forget that snape had the chance to die, rather than kill dumbledore. let's not be too nice to him here--at the very least he is, like harry said, a horrible coward; even if he wasn't evil through and through, he did have choice. That's something an author can write quite easily, and she didn't. One can only hope that he will now be instrumental in bringing down voldemort.

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tekunokurato.livejournal.com

oh, I see you guys covered this above already. Yes, dumbledore may have intended that snape kill him. word.

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Hello, Jack. Nice of you to join us. *grin*

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On another note, things really could have gone quite differently-- here's my alternate scenario. Non-verbal spellcasting; Harry's not so good at it, so that excuses his inaction, but Snape is very, very good at it. So here's how things could have gone a hell of a lot better: Dumbledore uses Legilimency to let Snape know that Harry's there; I'm not sure exactly if you can plant images in other people's brains with it, but Voldemort can do it, and so I think Dumbledore could do it. Snape surreptitiously frees Harry, then non-verbally starts hexing all the Death Eaters, and Harry joins in, who will not be killed because he's wearing the Invisibility Cloak and, as we all know from his Quidditch matches, he has great reflexes. They could have had all those Death Eaters down for the count, without anybody dying. And even if one Death Eater had time to aim something at Dumbledore, Snape still could have jumped in the way; in this scenario, his cover is blown anyway, so he's numero uno on Voldemort's hit list, dead man walking. The only obstacle I can see to this turn of events is that Dumbledore is protecting Snape's undercover position because it will help immensely in Voldemort's defeat. Although I'm inclined not to care; at this point, I'd ten thousand times rather have Snape dead than Dumbledore.

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I'd ten thousand times rather have Snape dead than Dumbledore.

He will be. Voldemort said so in GoF. Of course, we might not be so happy about it by the time it happens.

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Well, he might have changed his mind. After all, killing Dumbledore will be a top credential where Voldemort is concerned.

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Eeeeeeenteresting.

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satakieli.livejournal.com

hm... Can you link me to Passionate Trousers? (I'm assuming it's a stand-alone?)

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